Interchange Conference Transcript
y:\diwe5net\CLASSES\KWestm0e\CHAT\1Ibsen
[Message #1 09:26:46 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
In Act I, Nora frequently acts as Torvald's "little lark" and "squirrel"(1131-2); by the end of Act III, Nora tells Torvald she had "duties to [her]self"(1176) and that she must leave him and the children. Does the picture of Nora's character in the opening scene and in Act I prepare us at all for the Nora of Act III? Why or why not?
As you respond to the questions above, try to find examples to support your interpretations. Feel free to address just one of these questions in your first posting, too, so that we can get the discussion rolling....
[Message #2 10:15:08 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Laura Heck:
I think Nora undergoes a major change of character in this play. She starts as a seemingly sweet, obedient housewife to an inconsiderate, irrational woman.
[Message #3 10:15:46 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
I'm not sure that it prepares us for how she will turn out in Act III... but it certainly gives her motive. If I was called a "lark" or "squirrel" or some other condescending and degrading name like that, even if it was just playful, I would rebel too. She is being treated something he owns, not something he loves... and certainly not romantically. He is acting more like a father figure. She certainly has grounds for this change.
[Message #4 10:15:48 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
I feel that it does prepare us for what happens at the end of the play..personally if someone would constantly call me a squirrel and "their little lark" i would leave
[Message #5 10:16:15 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
We're not neccessarily prepared for Nora's complete turn about at the end, or maybe don't expect her to act so confident and collected in her decision. But it's reasonable that she would change given her "oppressed" living situation
[Message #6 10:16:53 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
RE; #5: Do we have any hints of her confidence in that opening scene?
[Message #7 10:17:01 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
"Oppressed" is the operative word in that sentence.
Torvald doesn't even see her... you know really see her. She is, like she says at the end, "a doll in his house."
[Message #8 10:17:15 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Laura Heck:
No, in fact she is portrayed as helpless.
[Message #9 10:17:40 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
A little. When she breaks out the Macaroons... that gives me a sense that she has a little rebellion in her.
[Message #10 10:17:42 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
well, she does show confidence in her ability to manipulate torvald into giving her money
[Message #11 10:18:19 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
I thought it was really interesting to wathc the Nora's character change...the way she is first portrayed as sweet and obedient. Then the audience finds out she has "disobeyed" her husband. And to see her struggle with this and become aware of her ability as a woman was fascinating.
[Message #12 10:18:52 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
Her leaving the oppressor at the end was the icing on the cake.
[Message #13 10:19:02 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
but that confidence is not transferred over to her ability to make real decisions for herself (not just what to buy as Christmas gifts) until the end of the play
[Message #14 10:19:10 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Laura Heck:
We have to consider that this was written in 1879. The fact that a woman would initiate a broken marriage is even more startling.
[Message #15 10:19:56 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
i agree..which is why Ibsen is considered one of the great playwrights.
[Message #16 10:20:10 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
But when he does give her money... he always tells her that she is going to squander it and then ask for more. He is such a, word I can't type out in this discussion.
I guess that my favorite part of this play and why it means so much to me, is because it is saying that women normally go from living in their father's house to living in their husband's house. They aren't expected to have this independent time in their lives. And Nora says that she wants it. She wants to see if she can make it on her own. It's amazing that this was written in 1879... it is such a feminist idea.
[Message #17 10:20:28 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
What other moments in Act I or Act II indicate that Nora is likely or is able to claim duties to herself, or to leave at the end?
[Message #18 10:20:36 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
True, true. Her life will be a never ending mess from now on, but her decision frees her from the expectations of society.
[Message #19 10:21:48 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
The fact alone that she could get this loan by herself and pay it off by herself without Torvald finding out... gives us the idea that she can handle the duties that life will hand her. It also give the character independence from societies norms.
[Message #20 10:21:57 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Laura Heck:
The fact that she borrowed all this money without her husband's permission shows how independent she is. Plus she knew how to budget her money and work odd jobs to meet the payments. She was very responsible in these duties to herself.
[Message #21 10:22:09 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
I think there is some forshadowing when she is talking with Kristine. Nora mentions how free she felt when she did her "big thing." I think she just liked the thought of never having to lift a finger...if she wasn't so stuck on material things she probably would have left Torvald sooner.
[Message #22 10:22:13 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
My thoughts exactly.
[Message #23 10:23:06 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
I don't think she would've left him sooner. I think she really was holding on to that shred of hope that her "miracle" would take place
[Message #24 10:23:44 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
Do you think Kristine had any influence over Nora's actions?
[Message #25 10:23:51 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
I think that the true miracle is that she finds herself. In the end it isn't what she expects it to be, but that her miracle is that she does have the strength to do this and walk out.
[Message #26 10:24:00 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
Her world view was undoubtedly shaped by her culture and I don't think she realizes that leaving Torvald is an option 'til near the end
[Message #27 10:24:03 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
Bravo!
[Message #28 10:24:35 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Laura Heck:
I think she was fairly content, I mean she was humming before the play even started.
[Message #29 10:25:00 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Laura Heck:
The stress of the money/forgery just made her make everything seem worse than it really was.
[Message #30 10:25:05 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
I think that Kristine opened Nora's eyes somewhat. She pretty much told Nora that she has always had everything handed to her and that her life was perfect and Kristine kind of held it against her. I don't think that a woman had ever looked down on Nora before... it changed her.
[Message #31 10:25:09 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
That's a good question about Kristine. I think she does serve as an example of independce for Nora
[Message #32 10:25:31 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
I find it interesting that this play was written by a man considering it is about a woman's self realization of who she is and what she is capable of without a husband.
[Message #33 10:25:40 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
RE: 26: Yes, leaving Torvald is not her first solution to the problem -- she plans to committ suicide at first.
[Message #34 10:25:58 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Laura Heck:
Yah, she's always talking about going "to sleep"
[Message #35 10:26:01 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
I fogot about the suicide
[Message #36 10:26:05 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
She considers committing suicide? did i miss that?
[Message #37 10:26:11 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
But don't you think Nora was humming because she was in her own little world, gaurding her little secret and feeling proud of herself?
[Message #38 10:26:16 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
LOL
[Message #39 10:26:34 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
yeah, she talks to rank about it
[Message #40 10:26:41 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
RE: 28: A good point, Laura: Nora seems willing to play the role she is expected to play, to "hum" along and act as a "lark"...and why?
[Message #41 10:26:41 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Laura Heck:
Yah, remember she had that conversation with Krogstad about the deep dark abyss of death?
[Message #42 10:26:42 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
or no, krogstad
[Message #43 10:26:58 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
Well, that changes a little bit of perspective for me... I know that suicide is this taboo word and that it shouldn't be looked on as an independent gesture, but at least she is looking for options other than staying with her husband...
[Message #44 10:27:11 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
That was her only way out...
[Message #45 10:28:05 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
I think she sees herself as expendible, or maybe the sacrifice is worth it to her- to have Torvald and the children be rid of her
[Message #46 10:28:12 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
Question: What does everyone think of Nora's relationship to Dr. Rank? Do you think she perpetuates it? or secretly wants it to happen??
[Message #47 10:28:40 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
I think she secretly wants it to happen. He's a doctor and has money...it's her dream.
[Message #48 10:28:43 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Laura Heck:
I think he was the secret admirer she kept waiting to give her a big inheritance.
[Message #49 10:29:02 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
The whole Dr. Rank thing intrigued me. I'm going to write about that I think.
[Message #50 10:29:10 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
And he listens to her... and he sees her. Look at all the clues. I mean, she tells him everything... he is her emotional companion.
[Message #51 10:29:27 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Laura Heck:
She was flirting with him, dangling her stockings in his face. I mean, what does she expect him to say to her?
[Message #52 10:29:46 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
Turning it around though, Laura, you are right... she teases him.
[Message #53 10:29:52 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
I feel sorry for him....he truly know who she is and she is treating him like her husband treats her.
[Message #54 10:29:59 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
Dr. Rank was the model husband and served as a foil (is that the right term) to Torvald. He helped to highlite his faults as a husband
[Message #55 10:30:12 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
I'm not sure how much she wants him... she just wants him to like her.
[Message #56 10:30:43 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
This also asserts her indepedence because she is using her sexuality to her advantage... how many women in the 1900's use their sexuality?
[Message #57 10:30:48 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
she wants his money, but with the husband she has now
[Message #58 10:30:59 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
But, do you think her flirtation and stuff is just a defense, a safeguard from letting her mind wander too much?
[Message #59 10:31:00 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Laura Heck:
I think she enjoys having control over Rank, a sort of power. He'd do anything for her. What girl wouldn't want to keep a guy like that around.
[Message #60 10:31:35 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
Perhaps Rank is aother example of Nora being abole to control someone, the situation? She's the one who can set the terms of their relationship? (to add to Laura's comment in #59...)
[Message #61 10:31:42 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
well, after the 50's women used their sexuality a lot. :)
[Message #62 10:31:44 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
I think that that's why he hangs around too... I don't see as great of a friendship between Dr. Rank and Torvald... I see that Rank comes over for her... and disguises it as friendship for both.
[Message #63 10:32:43 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
Control is big in Nora's life. Think about it. She persuades her husband to give her money all the time. She uses her sexuality to control the doctor. She forged her father's name to get a loan, which she had mentioned would throw back in her husbands face if her ever left her.
[Message #64 10:33:37 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
RE: #61: and for many decades/centuries before the '50s!
[Message #65 10:33:47 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
And when she loses control over something, she has little break downs. I thought that was so interesting the way that after her husband left the room with the letter, she went crazy and started muttering to herself about what she needed to do to leave... It's an interesting side to her.
[Message #66 10:33:55 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Laura Heck:
I think that's why she leaves--because she can't control her life in the doll's house. She is always under the grip of her husband.
[Message #67 10:33:58 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
People who are into sado masochism do say that the submissive is actually the true dominator.
[Message #68 10:34:03 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
Control freaks hate to lose control.
[Message #69 10:34:14 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Laura Heck:
That was so profound. :P
[Message #70 10:34:29 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
Thank you... it took some thought.
[Message #71 10:34:50 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Laura Heck:
What do you guys think about Anne Marie?
[Message #72 10:35:59 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
not a lot. she serves as a mother figure to Nora, but not much of one. nora has complete control over anne marie
[Message #73 10:35:59 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
Insignificant. I know that she probably has some deep meaning... but all I saw her as, was Torvald's true wife and true mother to his children. She was the model of what Nora wasn't... and it just upset me that she was submissive, I know she was a servant... I just didn't see her as intregral to the plot.
[Message #74 10:36:55 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
i never thought of her as the "true wife and true mother" though, that's an interesting thought abbey
[Message #75 10:37:00 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
So in a sense the characters balanced themselves. The doctor was the ideal husband, the nurse-maid the ideal wife. Interesting.
[Message #76 10:37:12 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
RE: #65: Yes, when she loses control of herself, she breaks out of character, out of her role.
[Message #77 10:37:41 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
It is an interesing parallel... I'm so glad I thought of it... hahaha J/k
So where does the lawyer come in?? What parallel does he serve to the play?
[Message #78 10:37:43 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
"role" being a key word
[Message #79 10:38:11 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
Or Ms. Linde... does she serve a major purpose?
[Message #80 10:38:17 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
********* Our time is almost up: As a way to sum up our discussion here on Nora's character, please respond to the following question as a final posting:
Has Nora's character changed during the course of the play? If so, how? If not, what has allowed her to remain the same? (Please offer an example in your response.)
[Message #81 10:38:22 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
He and Kristina are the catalysts
[Message #82 10:39:11 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
I think that she is the same throughout the play, but the course of events have now led her to believe more in herself and be outright with her true character. I don't think she necessarily changed, but she definetly was more true to herself by walking out and doing as she pleased.
[Message #83 10:39:11 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
yeah, she offers everybody a way out by getting krogstad off their case, and I think as mentioned earlier, she serves as an example to nora of independence
[Message #84 10:39:30 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Laura Heck:
I think Nora's character took a 180 degree spin: from the perfect little homemaker to an irrational woman.
[Message #85 10:39:50 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Abby Hiles:
Irrational is kind of a harsh word to use...
[Message #86 10:40:08 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
I feel her character has changed. In the beginning of the play she was happy playing the housewife role, but in the end she realizes that she was doing just that..playing the roll of the doll in a doll's house.
[Message #87 10:41:31 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Laura Heck:
Perfectly put, Nichole
[Message #88 10:41:50 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Nichole Garbarino:
thanks :)
[Message #89 10:42:05 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Megan Robinson:
Yes, she has become more confident with exerting her own desires and not cloaking them with the pettiness society expects her to focus on. She becomes honest with herself and others....