Interchange Conference Transcript
y:\diwe5net\CLASSES\KWestm0e\CHAT\2Ibsen
[Message #1 09:27:07 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
Consider Nora's tendency to lie during the play. How do you interpret the fact that Nora says one thing and often does another? For example, in the opening scene, Nora eats a couple of macaroons (1131) and then a few pages later "assures" (1133) Torvald she has not eaten any. Is she unaware of such discrepancies, or purposefully duplicitous? Are her lies all of the same kind and for the same purpose?
As you respond to the questions above, try to find examples to support your interpretations. Feel free to address just one of these questions in your first posting, too, so that we can get the discussion rolling....
[Message #2 10:14:47 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
Nora's lies are not all for the same purpose, but she thinks that they are harmless
[Message #3 10:15:11 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
I think that she is fully aware of her discrepancies. Her lines in the beginning have all kinds of meaning after you know the rest of the story. When she says, "if you only knew what expenses we larks and squirrels have," it doesn't really mean much until you understand her big secret.
[Message #4 10:15:25 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
RE #2: Are they harmless lies, then? Or not?
[Message #5 10:15:57 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
She justifies her lies for her conscience
[Message #6 10:16:18 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
She thinks its for her own good and the good of others.
[Message #7 10:16:21 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Meghan Harris:
Nora knows she's lying but not for the same purpose. Some of her lies are like little white lies so that her husband will not think less of her, and other lies keep her out of more trouble.
[Message #8 10:16:23 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
They are not harmless because she is supposed to share things with her husband esp. if he is the one who brings in the money
[Message #9 10:17:01 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
I don't think so. The lie about the macaroons is relatively harmless in action but the intention is what causes trouble. The lie about the money from Krogstad is harmful in action while the intention could be read as either good or bad.
[Message #10 10:17:09 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
I agree, she acts like a martyr
[Message #11 10:17:50 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
How important are Nora's motives for telling lies? How does the play ask us to evaluate her decision to borrow money, for instance?
[Message #12 10:17:50 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
Her lies get her in trouble..yet, she thinks that she is the one sacrificing
[Message #13 10:17:52 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Meghan Harris:
The lies don't seem to be of any harm when the play begins, but as it progresses the lies add up and she can't control how things happen anymore. Some of the lies are harmless, though, and don't add up to any large problems in the end.
[Message #14 10:18:05 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
I think she all of her lies are tied together, however, by her desire for freedom and independence.
[Message #15 10:18:11 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
I agree that the lie about macaroons is harmful but the fact is that one little lie leads to many other big lies until you have dug yourself a hole
[Message #16 10:18:28 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
i meant to say "harmless"
[Message #17 10:18:52 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
right, candice
[Message #18 10:19:25 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Meghan Harris:
what is she sacrificing when she tells the lies? (from her viewpoint)
[Message #19 10:19:28 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
Her whole life could be seen as a lie, since she is really live a facade for Torvald. The lady we see throughout the play does not seem to be the real Nora that shows herself at the end of the play.
[Message #20 10:19:45 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
living, sorry about my bad typing skills today
[Message #21 10:19:49 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
susan i agree. all she wants is freedom and in this time there wasn't much freedom for a women
[Message #22 10:20:30 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
I think it's interesting that even in her quest for freedom through getting the money for their vacation, she is still indebted to a man.
[Message #23 10:20:59 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Meghan Harris:
She still relied on a man, though, to get that money.
[Message #24 10:21:03 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
true it is kind of ironic
[Message #25 10:21:04 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
She tells Kristine that she needs new clothes, but spends her money on paying off the loan. She acts as if her sacrfices are the one thing that pays the loan off
[Message #26 10:21:34 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
She must deal with the consequences
[Message #27 10:22:12 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
So, what would we have felt about her character if she had not gotten the loan and had just let Torvald die?
[Message #28 10:22:48 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
Good question, Susan....
[Message #29 10:23:08 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
Why couldn't Torvald arrange for the loan before he became ill?
[Message #30 10:23:20 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
too ill
[Message #31 10:24:07 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
He doesn't like to borrow money. "No debts! Never borrow! Something of freedom's lost . . ." he says.
[Message #32 10:24:32 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
Would you rather borrow money or die?
[Message #33 10:24:58 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
also he isn't sure of what's to come of his new job. it is three months until he can start getting a lot of money
[Message #34 10:25:06 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Meghan Harris:
He doesn't want to go back into debt like they had been. If he borrows money, then there may not have been anything left for Nora if he would have died. And she being a woman would have a hard time trying to refinance for the family.
[Message #35 10:25:31 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
but that builds his character it shows that he is strong in his beliefs
[Message #36 10:25:56 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
Is it his beliefs or his reputation that he is worried about?
[Message #37 10:26:04 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Meghan Harris:
It's those beliefs that ultimately keep Nora from telling the truth (it seems).
[Message #38 10:26:08 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
Reputation
[Message #39 10:26:24 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
more reputation but still it is his character
[Message #40 10:27:02 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
Not so much reputation, it could be him being stubburn and not wanting to compromise
[Message #41 10:27:05 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
but he believes in his reputation to stick strong to his word
[Message #42 10:27:21 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
good point, i can see that too
[Message #43 10:27:30 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
I guess I'm just not convinced about how great his character is after his outburst at Nora when he learns about her situation with Krogstad.
[Message #44 10:27:45 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
I agree
[Message #45 10:27:59 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
RE: 32: A good point, Allison, yet Torvald, it seems, would rather die than borrow money -- what does this view tell us about Torvald's character?
[Message #46 10:28:05 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
i am not saying his character is great?
[Message #47 10:28:08 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
I cannot decide if he is an antagonist
[Message #48 10:29:33 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
He values his reputation and his independence, which makes it all the more absurd that he cannot recognize his wife's need for her own independence, to a certain extent.
[Message #49 10:30:01 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
He is a miser and he is protrayed as stubborn, strong-willed and somewhat hard to get along with...his way or no way. But, that was most men in that time period
[Message #50 10:30:26 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
he has pride and doesn't want his reputation to suffer.
[Message #51 10:30:41 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
i agree allison it was most men
[Message #52 10:31:15 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
I didn't feel like he was an antagonist at first. The thing that bothered me, though, was his habit of refering to her as sparrow, lark, etc.
[Message #53 10:31:22 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
I think that is just the way things are done
[Message #54 10:31:27 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Meghan Harris:
He already has independence, he just doesn't want his wife to be independent. He wants her to be under his wing and for him to guide him. His character is only reacting to how society treated women. His stubbornness is the part of his characteristics that makes him want to make sure Nora remains dependent.
[Message #55 10:31:57 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
I agree with the bird comparison..haha
[Message #56 10:32:15 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
what was that?
[Message #57 10:32:23 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
And why doesn't Torvald want Nora to be independent?
[Message #58 10:32:55 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
The frustrating thing is that by putting forth such effort to keep her dependent, he shows that he recognizes her own ability/desire to actually be independent, if that makes sense.
[Message #59 10:33:00 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
He prides himself on having her like that
[Message #60 10:33:02 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Meghan Harris:
Torvald wants his reputation as the "man of the house." He wants to make sure everything that happens goes under his name.
[Message #61 10:33:04 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
he wants her to be dependant on him
[Message #62 10:33:37 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
I agree with Meghan
[Message #63 10:33:44 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
Nora's independence would put her on the same level as him, and he likes to be in control. In control of his wife, his family, the bank, the workers at the bank like Krogstad . . .
[Message #64 10:34:33 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
I can see that, too
[Message #65 10:34:41 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
in those days if a mans worth was determined on whether he could or couldn't support a wife and family. It was an insult to him if the women were to work and make her own money
[Message #66 10:34:48 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
OK: So, to return to where we started: How much are we to judge Nora's character for the lies she tells, given what we've been saying here?
[Message #67 10:36:15 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
it shows that in a way she is scared just because she is doing something that was forbidden back then. That is why she lies.
[Message #68 10:36:23 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
I think the reason that she lies is b/c she is sly. She wants him to think that he is doing all of the work and wants to avoid conflict
[Message #69 10:36:27 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Meghan Harris:
Nora seems to lie to protect her own self-worth and somehow try to become more independent.
[Message #70 10:36:50 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
She lets him think whatever he wants, so he will be content
[Message #71 10:36:51 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
I guess my gut reaction is that there must have been a better way than lying. But if I put myself in her position, with so many restrictions and people's limited view of my abilities, I can't say that I would have been content to just sit around either.
[Message #72 10:37:09 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
she wants the satisfaction tha she did something without her hausbands consent
[Message #73 10:37:18 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
In turn, she gets used to lying and starts a chain of lies
[Message #74 10:37:34 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Meghan Harris:
Maybe her lies proves to us that she can think on her own. She knows what she's doing, and in the end realizes the conflict that has come from it.
[Message #75 10:37:42 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
true they on;y get bigger
[Message #76 10:38:09 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
So, is she right or wrong, or can it even be broken down that simply?
[Message #77 10:38:28 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Karin Westman:
********* Our time is almost up: As a way to sum up our discussion here on Nora's character, please respond to the following question as a final posting:
Has Nora's character changed during the course of the play? If so, how? If not, what has allowed her to remain the same? (Please offer an example in your response.)
[Message #78 10:38:40 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
I do not think we can even begin to say if she is right os wrong
[Message #79 10:39:09 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
We would have to take so many aspects into account
[Message #80 10:39:56 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Meghan Harris:
Nora's character definitly changes. She goes from the submissive woman that was usually seen in society to a woman demanding her independence and coming to the conclusion that she never truely loved Torvald. There is a great shift (which is sometimes frustrating) between her different characteristics.
[Message #81 10:40:51 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
allison stasi:
Nora's character changes throughout the play, she goes from happy mom and wife to independence driven woman
[Message #82 10:41:01 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Susan Blake:
Yes, I think Nora's character has changed through the course of the play. Her inner character might stay the same, since her quest for independence started long before we enter the play, but I believe her character has changed due to the action she takes. Her final conflict with Torvald where she decides to leave him is monumental in her character development. It takes that inner desire that we've only got whispers of throughout the play and makes it real.
[Message #83 10:42:01 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Meghan Harris:
She takes huge steps in speaking up. It seemed as though she waited her entire life, and we waited the entire play for her to finally stand up to her lies and confusion about the family.
[Message #84 10:42:08 AM, Thursday, March 06, 2003]
Candice Axtell:
she changed in the respect that she acted in what she wanted without regarding torvald's opinion. she stood up and left him and realized she could do things on her own. she had integrity in the end