Interchange Conference Transcript
y:\diwe5net\CLASSES\KWestm10\CHAT\1Ibsen
[Message #1 04:01:07 PM, Wednesday, March 10, 2004]
Karin Westman:
In Act I, Nora frequently acts as Torvald's "little lark" and "squirrel"(1131-2); by the end of Act III, Nora tells Torvald she had "duties to [her]self" (1176) and that she must leave him and the children. Does the picture of Nora's character in the opening scene and in Act I prepare us at all for the Nora of Act III? Why or why not?
As you discuss to the questions above, try to find examples, too, to support your interpretations.
[Message #2 01:50:31 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Shanna Hajek:
It may somewhat, since she has little secrets that she keeps from him (ex: the macaroons). But, it is still a pretty severe change in character.
[Message #3 01:51:12 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Ann Crusch:
She seemed so flighty and carefree that I was surprised at her secret in a way. But given that she didn't know the seriousness of what she had actually done, she still seemed kind of the same person.
[Message #4 01:51:13 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Mike Matthews:
Not particularly, In Act I Nora seems perfectly happy with acting as Torvald's "little lark"
[Message #5 01:52:04 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Karin Westman:
Do the rest of you agree with Mike?
[Message #6 01:52:04 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Debbie Swann:
I thought it was a very uncharacteristic thing for her to do. A huge revelation, that's for sure. She always presents herself as cheerful, content and happy to be his pet, almost. It's almost annoying seeing how submissive she is, but then at the end, I was taken aback by her actions
[Message #7 01:52:25 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Melissa Dorsch:
I don't think that the way she acts in Act I prepares the reader at ALL for what we get in Act III. She was always very much wanting to please her husband, and never thinking of things on her own-- I guess what Shanna said about the macarroons was true though...
[Message #8 01:53:13 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Debbie Swann:
But hiding guilty pleasures, like sweets, does not mean one is going to leave her family.
[Message #9 01:53:19 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Mike Matthews:
Though it seems to hint at what is to come when she is humming with a smile of quiet satisfaction and says: Hm, if you only knew what expenses we larks and squirrels have, Torvald
[Message #10 01:53:27 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Shanna Hajek:
But, her asking him for money is so that she can pay Krogstad...which we don't really know at the beginning. This shows that she has a secret side of her that goes deeper than macaroons.
[Message #11 01:54:29 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Melissa Dorsch:
this is true, but the fact that she seems to enjoy being her husband's "pet" and doing things to please him, led to a very surprising end.
[Message #12 01:54:37 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Karin Westman:
So, Nora's going against Torvald in Act I, but only she knows it?
[Message #13 01:54:54 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Karin Westman:
RE: #11...or not going against him, in some ways!
[Message #14 01:55:16 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Shanna Hajek:
I think so. It's Torvald projecting the image of a "pet" upon her. She is merely trying to take care of her family.
[Message #15 01:55:39 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Ann Crusch:
I think she enjoyed being 'the pet' and that it was very natural for her. I don't know that I think it's a real personal thing with her husband - he just fits nicely into the kind of world she wants.
[Message #16 01:55:55 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Debbie Swann:
I don't think she decides to leave him until right at the very moment she says the words in Act III. It's so easy to pretend to be happy in a little house with little children and little goals. I don't think she expected to do something so drastic.
[Message #17 01:56:18 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Debbie Swann:
She was playing a part, basically.
[Message #18 01:56:31 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Shanna Hajek:
I wouldn't say she enjoyed being a pet though. She was a pet for her father, a little doll. We see that she wants to strike out and do things for herself with the loan that she gets from Krogstad.
[Message #19 01:56:33 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Melissa Dorsch:
I didn't really think that she was going against him. As i look back now and read over those details more carefully, it almost seems like there is something she's trying to hide, going against him. But I also think that what Ann said is very true. I agree.
[Message #20 01:57:52 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Ann Crusch:
I don't think she sees herself as going against him. And they are such little things to her, even the loan, which was absolutely necessary and as she says 'done out of love'
[Message #21 01:58:11 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Mike Matthews:
I felt like she was trying to protect him from the truth in some ways and she trys to accomplish this by hiding things from him
[Message #22 01:58:11 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Shanna Hajek:
I wouldn't say she's going against him. She's unconcioiusly doing these things for herself.
[Message #23 01:59:12 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Debbie Swann:
She's so afraid to be herself. She doesn't want Torvald to know that she thinks for herself. The loan, sneaking sweets, having friends.... it's not her life. At the end, she has a revelation and begins to want to live for herself, not just be his pet. It happens very quickly, though the sparks of the enlightenment may have been present for a while.
[Message #24 01:59:26 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Shanna Hajek:
But is she trying to protect him or is she trying to protect herself from the onslaught from him that would be a result of the embarassment he would suffer if anyone found out about it?
[Message #25 01:59:39 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Melissa Dorsch:
But initially, when we see her "strike out" and get the loan, we get the impression that she's doing it solely because she loves him, not in some attempt to be doing things on her own, to be independant of him in any way. I think that her motives were very genuinely out of love.
[Message #26 01:59:42 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Debbie Swann:
Protect him.
[Message #27 02:00:07 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Karin Westman:
Good points so far about Nora's character and her reasons for playing the role of Act I, and for getting the money in the first place.
What makes Nora decide not to play anymore the role she plays so well in Act I, then? What is it in Act III that makes the difference?
[Message #28 02:00:10 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Melissa Dorsch:
I agree. protect him
[Message #29 02:00:16 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Mike Matthews:
I agree with Debbie especially after seeing his out burst from finding out
[Message #30 02:01:00 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Ann Crusch:
I don't think she ever expects an onslaught from him. I think she is more worried about what it will do to his ego and the impact on their relationship. She is very dependant on him
[Message #31 02:01:14 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Shanna Hajek:
But she described his reaction that she wanted as a miracle? Why would she say that if she wasn't afraid of how he would react?
[Message #32 02:01:52 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Melissa Dorsch:
I think what makes the difference is the realization that their marriage is rather superficial. Like she said, they never talked about anything with real significance, and it wasn't ever very deep. I think it was a very rash decision, and it made me sad/frustrated that she wasn't going to stick it out and figure things out.
[Message #33 02:02:46 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Debbie Swann:
I love that the whole time she is waiting to be adored by someone other than her husband. She wants to be adored by some stranger who really can see her for her beauty, not just for the personal satisfaction that she provides for him. When Torvald has his outburst, she really understands how much this dream of someone else, or even something else, is really true and important to her. That's why she leaves him.
[Message #34 02:02:48 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Shanna Hajek:
I don't think they could have figured things out. He was willing to toss her out just because of this one little thing that embarassed him. I know I wouldn't want to stay with someone like that!
[Message #35 02:03:27 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Shanna Hajek:
I agree with Debbie. Nora sees the possibility of the life she's always wanted.
[Message #36 02:03:34 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Debbie Swann:
I agree with Shanna. A marrage cannot recover from such a savage verbal beating.
[Message #37 02:04:15 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Debbie Swann:
I guess you and I are in agreement then, Shanna. Haha.
[Message #38 02:04:26 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Mike Matthews:
Yes hes reaction was a bit Dr. Hyde like one moment he doesnt want her tainting the kids the next he forgives her and everything is perfect again
[Message #39 02:05:17 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Karin Westman:
Is their marriage unusual, in the context of the play's society? That is, how do the other characters respond to the way Nora behaves, and to their marriage?
[Message #40 02:05:18 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Shanna Hajek:
I was saddened by the whole thing with Dr. Rank. He was what Nora really wanted in a husband. Someone who cared about her and really appreciated having meaningful conversations.
[Message #41 02:05:46 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Debbie Swann:
That's right, Mike. He's so concerned about his reputation that he goes crazy. He doesn't even worry about how this secret has been affecting his wife. Then when his honor is safe, he expects to go back to his wife and play nice again.
[Message #42 02:06:00 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Ann Crusch:
But he was also so completely unprepared for it. She has never given any indication of acting on her own. Or at least not in such a big way that Torvald would have suspicions
[Message #43 02:06:16 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Debbie Swann:
I wanted Nora and Dr. Rank to run away together. That's really what I expected to happen.
[Message #44 02:06:30 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Melissa Dorsch:
I agree that he was very harsh, cruel, insensitive, etc toward her when he found out-- but isn't that to be expected? I mean, it could've led to a revelation for himself-- him seeing that he was being a jerk, and needed to actually love her for who she is. I see where Debbie and Shanna are coming from-- totally, I woudln't want to be married to someone who would treat me like that. BUT, I couldn't help but feel sorry for her husband in the end. He was going to be alone, with three kids.
[Message #45 02:06:39 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Shanna Hajek:
Yeah, too bad he died, huh?
[Message #46 02:07:04 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Melissa Dorsch:
I agree with Ann, it was really unexpected
[Message #47 02:07:22 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Karin Westman:
*********We're going to have to wrap up this portion of our discussion, so as a final posting, please respond to the following question:
Has Nora's character changed during the course of the play? If so, how, and why? If not, what has allowed her to remain the same?
[Message #48 02:08:08 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Ann Crusch:
I don't think she changed much. I saw her as flighty and optimistic to the end.
[Message #49 02:08:40 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Shanna Hajek:
Her character at the end of the play is very different from what it was at the beginning. I think that she still has the same ideas, but now she has the strength (and a reason) to voice those ideas.
[Message #50 02:08:59 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Melissa Dorsch:
I think Nora's character has changed. I guess she realized that she wasn't happy where she was at, that her and her husband really didn't know each other-- that their relationship wasn't founded on anything significant, or anything that was deep enough to last. And then she decided to leave. Going from depending on him, to leaving-- that's kind of a change...
[Message #51 02:09:36 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Mike Matthews:
I believe that Nora's character really matured during the play. Because she finally realized that she hadnt been happy for so long that she was confusing the show she had put on with her father and Torvald with actual happyness
[Message #52 02:09:41 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Debbie Swann:
Of course she has changed. She's willing to leave everything she has ever been TOLD she wanted to go find what she really wants. She has courage now to live for herself. I don't think you could say she hasn't changed. She's "icily calm" when she is leaving him whereas before she was bouncing all over the place as to inhibit her inevitable change. But she has accepted it, and is willing to start a new life.