Interchange Conference Transcript
y:\diwe5net\CLASSES\KWestm10\CHAT\2Ibsen
[Message #1 04:02:08 PM, Wednesday, March 10, 2004]
Karin Westman:
Consider Nora's tendency to lie during the play. How do you interpret the fact that Nora says one thing and often does another? For example, in the opening scene, Nora eats a couple of macaroons (1131) and then a few pages later "assure[s]" (1133) Torvald she has not eaten any. Is she unaware of such discrepancies, or purposefully duplicitous? Are her lies all of the same kind and for the same purpose?
As you discuss to the questions above, try to find examples, too, to support your interpretations. And feel free to address just one of these questions in your first posting, too, so that we can get the discussion rolling....
[Message #2 01:50:32 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Tanner Clagett:
I feel like Nora's lies are all meant to maintain some degree of innocence or frailty on her part.
[Message #3 01:51:03 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Karin Westman:
So, she's purposefully lying...what are the advantages of innocence, then?
[Message #4 01:51:03 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Alisha Maserang:
I think she's aware of her discrepancies. She's like a little kid that knows she should do as she's told but its so hard for her to not eat the cookies.
[Message #5 01:51:12 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Carla Schuster:
I don't really think that she thinks these lies are serious at all. Especially the ones that keep someone from being hurt-such as the fraud of signing her father's name on the check in order to get money to help her husband get well.
[Message #6 01:51:13 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Tanner Clagett:
She wants Torvald, as well as everyone else, to think that she is just a sweet "little lark"
[Message #7 01:51:30 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Kristen Ackerman:
I think Nora is fully aware that she is lying to Torvald throughout the play with these little examples such as with the Macaroons. I think all of her lies are for the same kind of purpose, which is basically to not let Torvald into her world that he wouldn't approve of.
[Message #8 01:51:31 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Alisha Maserang:
I agree. She wants to live up to the image that Torvald has of her
[Message #9 01:51:56 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Caley Cole:
I think Nora is very well aware of the lies she tells, yet I think she accepts it in order to play the role that is believes is expected for her as a wife and mother.
[Message #10 01:51:56 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Alisha Maserang:
Approval seems to be very important to her.
[Message #11 01:52:41 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Alisha Maserang:
It goes along with the title of the play, she's like a doll playing her part.
[Message #12 01:52:54 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Karin Westman:
Why is approval so important? And what is the role she is expected to play as wife and mother?
[Message #13 01:52:59 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Tanner Clagett:
When it starts to come to light that she has done something so big and so powerful on her own without Torvald's help, she will do anything to keep it from surfacing. How could Torvald ever live with her as an innocent little woman when she's capable of such things?
[Message #14 01:53:05 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Kristen Ackerman:
I agree, she is constantly seeking his approval, even though his ideas are not at all aligned with hers
[Message #15 01:53:12 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Carla Schuster:
I agree-she wants approval, even if she has to lie and hide things about herself in order to get it.
[Message #16 01:54:36 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Caley Cole:
I think her idea of being an ideal wife is to become or at least give the impression that she is completely submissive to her husband, and she conforms to his every need and desire.
[Message #17 01:55:12 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Alisha Maserang:
She probably was raised to believe that that was her role in life.... to be the perfect wife and mother.
[Message #18 01:55:12 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Kristen Ackerman:
Nora is expected to play that role of passive wife who doesn't any better about money or eating sweets, etc. This way, Torvald can act as if he is so much more knowledgeable than she is and treat like his pet, his doll so to speak.
[Message #19 01:55:28 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Tanner Clagett:
She's not supposed to be independent, she's supposed to need him for everything. And she attempts to keep that dependence alive, like when she demands Torvald's help with the Tarrantella, she's not only keeping him from the mailbox, but maintaining the image of the needy woman.
[Message #20 01:56:03 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Alisha Maserang:
And he loves that image. He wants to be the big strong man that she can't live without
[Message #21 01:56:17 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Karin Westman:
Is the passive wife role in tension, then, with her lies, or does it allow her to maintain her role?
[Message #22 01:56:28 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Tanner Clagett:
And Torvald thrives on this. He needs her to need him. He has to know that he's in control. When she starts to leave him, and take action on her own, he falls apart.
[Message #23 01:56:51 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Carla Schuster:
It seems that this dependance is something that is overdone a bit in this play, just to show that independance and more of a partnership is what is needed in a marriage-rather than the dependance of the woman on the man.
[Message #24 01:57:03 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Alisha Maserang:
The lies allow her to maintain that role. She can still have her own sense of independence and yet maintain the image that she is controlled by him
[Message #25 01:57:28 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Tanner Clagett:
Of course it's in tension with her lies. By feigning dependence and actually becoming a strong, manipulative woman, she's protecting her image of frailty and need.
[Message #26 01:57:54 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Kristen Ackerman:
The way he talks to her, that sort "you are an idiot, and I strive on it," sort of way was really nauseating throughout this whole play really.
[Message #27 01:58:01 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Caley Cole:
Your right Tanner, at that point at became very clear that this realtionship had never been built upon love, but rather control, and what Nora could do to make Torvald feel more like a man.
[Message #28 01:58:33 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Alisha Maserang:
I agree with Kristen, the way her talked to her like a child was so demeaning.
[Message #29 01:59:23 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Alisha Maserang:
It seemed like he never really talked to her, he talked at her but didn't really listen to what she had to say.
[Message #30 01:59:41 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Caley Cole:
I also found it rather interesting that through her ability to manipulate Torvald, in a sense, Nora had control the whole time, yet I'm not sure she fully realized that!
[Message #31 01:59:49 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Carla Schuster:
But the independence that she has is so small-eating macaroons. When she does something larger, she tries to hide it from him as well. When he finds out about it, it takes away his whole idea about the power structure of the marriage. She has the power to destroy him.
[Message #32 01:59:55 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Caley Cole:
....Until the end.
[Message #33 02:00:00 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Tanner Clagett:
That's only because she was never supposed to have anything to say. She wasn't supposed to be his intellecutl equal.
[Message #34 02:00:49 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Carla Schuster:
She has power-up to a point. But he drags her away from the party when he wants to go and, really, he only gives in to her when it doesn't matter.
[Message #35 02:01:15 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Tanner Clagett:
I disagree, I think Nora always had all the power....
[Message #36 02:01:17 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Karin Westman:
What about her resourcefullness in getting the money and paying it back? How does that detail influence our reading of her power?
[Message #37 02:01:54 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Carla Schuster:
but she could only get money through forging her father's signature, which was illegal.
[Message #38 02:01:55 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Tanner Clagett:
It just wasn't socially acceptable, and she was supposed to know her place as his wife.
[Message #39 02:02:07 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Karin Westman:
RE: 34 and others on power: Perhaps it's helpful, then, to think about the different kinds of power which are in operation in the play, and that some of them may be endorsed and some of them aren't?
[Message #40 02:02:31 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Kristen Ackerman:
Her resourcefullness in getting the money really just shows the reader how off of an impression that Torval had of Nora. He would have never thought her capable of this kind of action.
[Message #41 02:03:23 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Tanner Clagett:
That's because of society, she can't get money by herself because that sort of power was left to those capable of dealing with it and understanding it (aka, men), but she was quite resourceful in acquiring it herself.
[Message #42 02:03:24 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Carla Schuster:
But it's ironic that she did this-borrowing the money-in order to save her home, and it ended up being the thing that tore it apart.
[Message #43 02:03:29 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Alisha Maserang:
He didn't think she was capable of anything. She was just a silly little bird that entertained him, or so he thought.
[Message #44 02:03:43 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Caley Cole:
I think this action helped fortify the idea that Nora had control, yet failed to use it at all times.
[Message #45 02:04:12 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Kristen Ackerman:
Torvald also has power over Dr. Rank, Rank holds back his feelings about his disease and eventual death because he knows Torvald does not like to hear about things of that nature. How hard did it have to be for Dr. Rank to supress his emotions to a man that was supposed to be his best friend.
[Message #46 02:04:12 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Tanner Clagett:
That's because she couldn't use it.
[Message #47 02:04:49 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Caley Cole:
She was too content in playing Torvald's petty games- perhaps in hopes of finding true love one day from Torvald.
[Message #48 02:05:29 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Carla Schuster:
Also, Nora didn't mention her old friends to her husband because it would upset him. It seems everyone is 'afraid' of upsetting him.
[Message #49 02:05:32 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Tanner Clagett:
I think she tought she had true love already. But as soon as she became aware of the reality of herself and the situation, she immediately saw that it was far from true love.
[Message #50 02:06:07 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Karin Westman:
RE: #40: Yes. Torvald has really underestimated Nora...which offers an interesting insight into his character!
[Message #51 02:06:10 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Caley Cole:
I think she was merely "in love" with the idea of being in love.
[Message #52 02:06:10 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Kristen Ackerman:
You would think after so many years together, Nora and Torvald would've developed some sort of mutual respect for each other. Even if it wasn't "true love."
[Message #53 02:06:14 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Tanner Clagett:
I don't think it's so much a matter of upsetting Torvald, so much as it would offset the power balance.
[Message #54 02:07:26 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Tanner Clagett:
RE: #52, there could never be such a mutual respect. Torvald would never consider Nora his equal.
[Message #55 02:07:32 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Carla Schuster:
They never bothered to move beyond the playfullness and lust, i guess, of the honeymoon phase, onto the companionship and partnership of marriage.
[Message #56 02:07:36 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Karin Westman:
*********We're going to have to wrap up this portion of our discussion, so as a final posting, please respond to the following question:
Has Nora's character changed during the course of the play? If so, how, and why? If not, what has allowed her to remain the same?
[Message #57 02:08:37 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Caley Cole:
Yes, I think she finally realized she had the power to take her own life in her hands, and become her own person.
[Message #58 02:09:19 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Kristen Ackerman:
I don't think she has changed; she really just woke up to reality. She realized that she was capable of being on her own and didn't have to keep up the facade of her marriage with Torvald any longer.
[Message #59 02:09:41 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Alisha Maserang:
I think in the end she finally realized she was a strong person and didn't have to live the image that she had all this time.
[Message #60 02:09:53 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Tanner Clagett:
Of course: she has realized that she shouldn't be considered suboridinate to Torvald. She's his equal, and he would never consider her that. Thus, she took it upon herself to leave the home in which she was a symbol, an object, and go out to find herself.
She would never have been so bold at the beginning, when she denied such simple acts as eating macaroons. She has most certainly become self-realized and independent.
[Message #61 02:10:23 PM, Thursday, March 11, 2004]
Carla Schuster:
I don't think that Nora's character itself has changed. She still is the same person. However, she finally realizes that she is a person herself, and that she doesn' t have to live for her husband. She can now live for herself. She's become stronger in her sense of self, but she's still the same person.